Driscoll, and Harris and Chan, oh my.
Hot topic on the web was the intense Cross examination Francis Chan got from Mark Driscoll and Josh Harris at the together for the Gospel coalition.. You can watch the discussion here.
My friend @BlendahTom was “disturbed” by it. I was not. Here is why.
First, Driscoll and Harris where asking questions. Very good questions. Francis Chan is a big boy, and he can answer them. Indeed I do think he did answer them fairly well.
Secondly, I think that they are questions that needed to be asked.
One of the problems presented by a passionate preacher like Chan is that he is all about radical obedience. Obedience is always good, but it is not always radical. There is a lot to be said for “long obedience in the same direction” Prophets tend to be quite moody — Radical obedience is frequently followed by radical depression. (See Elijah hiding in the cave for example) When you are called to radical obedience, it is important to obey the spirit, but I don’t think it is a good idea to get addicted to the thrill of radicalism. Of the people I know preaching today, Francis Chan is probably the most obediently radical, and he is also winds up sabbaticalling all of the time. Radicalism for the sake of radicalism can become an idol, and Driscoll’s questions are making Francis think his situation through to make sure that isn’t the case..
@BlendahTom also suggested that maybe it was Harris and Driscoll that needed to re-think Church. I don’t disagree with that. I suspect that Harris and Driscoll re-think things all of the time. There are a lot of things that happened at Cornerstone Simi that should be replicated in a lot of local churches. I do think that Francis is mistaking a bit in idolizing the local church as we see it in the epistles. Acts 2 introduces the first MegaChurch. Verse 41:” So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. “ Verse 46 tells us that they continued to meet together in the temple as well as to eat together in their homes. There is a tendency to throw out the “Meeting together at the temple” and believe the Church was only meeting in small groups. I don’ think that is the case. I think that the earliest church was a big ugly impersonal megachurch. We see the elders trying to address many of the megachurch problems in Acts 6:1-7.
I do believe that Francis Chan has a pretty poor track record as far a church strategy goes – He has preached on his many many failures that God has used for good. (I will try to find that sermon one of these days and publish it as an update.) It sounds like he has tried just about everything, and it always winds up falling flat – Never working out the way it was expected .. There is no problem with this. Running a megachurch is hard business – No two are alike, and there are few models that you can follow. This has been Francis’ weakness in which God is most glorified. Cornerstone Simi is an amazing church in spite of Francis, not because of Francis, and this is the way it should be.
By stepping of his leadership role, Francis makes sure that this remains true, but it removes a lot of the mystery. I doubt his successor will be quite as crazy as Francis.
I do think that Driscoll’s questions may have put a bit too much emphasis on leadership. Driscoll feels called to preach at Mars Hill Seattle for his whole life. Simi Valley is not Seattle, and Francis isn’t Mark. It does make quite a bit of sense for Francis to move his influence upstream. Culture flows out from the cities to the suburbs and into the countryside. Having a Church with the ethics of Cornerstone Simi in the heart of Los Angeles would make a lot of sense, if Francis is called to build it. I don’t think there was any problem with Driscoll asking the questions he asked about the future of Cornerstone. They had rather obvious answers, which Francis did give confidently. An interviewer would be remiss not to ask the basic questions that everyone is asking.
I do think a Church learns a lot by losing it’s leader. As Mark Driscoll used to say “Jesus is our Senior Pastor”.
So, I don’t really share @BlendahTom‘s concern. I thought this was a good interview, with highly relevant questions. It was healthy that those questions where asked, and it was healthy that those questions where answered. It is best that Francis Chan is not misunderstood.
Half an answer to half a question
I recieved this “question” via my “Ask Anything” link. I think it got truncated so I am not sure what the question was.
Dear brother in Jesus, God says, “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times. what is still to come!…What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned that will I do!” Isaiah 46:10a, 11b This Bible study compares all
Like I said, I don’t know what the question was – I would say that God has made known the plan of salvation, redemption and renewal. Isaiah could see that promise, and he had faith that it would be fulfilled. Israel’s disobedience would not interfere with God’s plan. He would accomplish his goals in spite of them.
And indeed he did – Israel was restored after captivity in Babylon, and a Savior was born, to deliver us all (Jew and Gentile) from the slavery to sin and death.
Yep. This nails it..
“You don’t polish the brass on a sinking ship” (J. Vernon McGee).
“God sent us to be fishers of men, not to clean up the fish bowl”. (Hal Linsey).
Those quotes exress the problem I have with the popular Pre-trib rapture theory.
Throughout the bible I see time and time again a cycle where God’s people receive blessing. After a generation or so, they begin to take it for granted. Then next generation forgets who the blessing came from and begins to treat the blessing as a curse or a part of nature. This inevitably leads to pain, war and strife. Once people’s sin has broken them down, God uses revival to restore his people to a state of blessing.. This cycle seems to repeat itself over and over – Like a pendulum.
At it’s core, the pre-trib rapture theory hopes that this is the final swing of the pendulum. As such, they do not hope for a large scale revival.
We get a very individualistic faith when we assume that the corporate battle is lost. We focus only on rescuing individuals, not on disciplining nations.
Yes, this may be the last swing of the pendulum but people have been saying that since 35 AD or so. Isn’t revival also a miraculous work of God? One worth longing for? No one knows the day or the hour. The dirty fishbowl is killing all of the fish.
There where great men of faith that lead great revivals over history, and I am glad they did. Martin Luther called the Church to repentance, and the world is a better place because of it. William Wilburforce stood up to the slave trade. MLK Jr, fought the commonplace racism and discrimination. All of these battles where un-winnable, but miraculously they have been largely won today. I am thankful that revival happens, and I am hopeful that it may happen again.
If this is the final swing that is fine too. I am not going to count on it. Nobody knows the hour.
Conversation relayed to me by my wife.
Andee and the kids went for a walk. I don’t know the full context, but here is the conversation as it was relayed to me..
Andee: I am funny
Julia: I am funnier. –Comedic pause – I am funnier than Daddy THINKS he is.
Jesus didn’t lie or use empty words.
Okay, I will make another run at this.
One of the most compelling arrangements people have against Christianity is all of the prophecies that Jesus made regarding the imminence of the coming of his kingdom. Indeed many places he told his audience that “This generation will not pass” before these things come to be”. If you do a quick Google search you will find many well reasoned results for “the failed prophecies of Jesus”
Many apologists use the un-credible argument that Jesus was talking about “This Race” not this generation. This may answer some of the verses, but not all of them. It also removes the meanings from what Jesus said. I don’t think Jesus spoke loophole filled gibberish that lacked meaning. When his disciples asked “when are these things to come to pass” he didn’t answer “Before all of the Jews are exterminated” To claim he did is without foundation. His words meant things, and if he had said that it would have contradicted many other prophecies in the bible about God’s promises to the Jews. Beyond that – the word is a commonly used word throughout the bible, and it is always translated “generation” and never translated “race”. It always means the people living right now.
I am fairly convinced that the “this race” translation was a panicked re-interpretation. Well Jesus couldn’t have meant that, what could he have meant? Then they stretched the word to the maximum fringe of it’s possible interpretations and say that is what Jesus must have meant. But in doing so, they are giving way to much credence to their own disbelief. Perhaps what Jesus was talking about did come to pass. Shouldn’t we check and see?
I am pretty convinced the truth is that Jesus was not talking about the end of the world but rather the end of the Jewish age. Matthew 24 in particular is pretty clear. Jesus is answering the question “When will the temple cease to be”
The Jews had a celebration every year for the “festival of lights” or “The feast of dedication”. Today it is commonly known as Hanukkah. This was a celebration of what happened last time somebody had defiled the temple. Antiochus Epiphanies, an emperor of the Seleucid empire had conquered Jerusalem and erected an idol of Zues in the temple and had sacrificed Pork on the altar. A Jewish Priest named Judas Maccabees rose up an rebellion and drove the Seleucids out of the temple. When Jesus visited the temple In John 10:24, this event was being celebrated and the people asked him “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
In the Jewish mind, God was in the temple — He was it’s protector. If the Romans defiled the temple – they walked into Israel’s ultimate military ambush. God certainly would protect the Holy of Holies. God would certainly raise up a leader to overthrow the gentiles that defiled the temple. It was a huge trap that the Romans where walking into.
But Jesus knew that this was not the case.
[21] Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. [22] You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. [23] But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. [24] God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
(John 4:21-24 ESV)
In Matthew 24, Jesus warns his disciples that when THEY see the abomination of desolation that the prophet Daniel described, THEY should RUN. He warns that many people will try to raise up a rebellion like Judas Maccabees did, but they should not be deceived, Jerusalem will be destroyed, and not one stone from the temple will be left upon the other.
Most futurists put the abomination of desolation at the end times. I see this as a problem, as Jesus clearly told his audience that they would see it. He clearly told them that they should run. He told them that these events would happen within their generation. And unless you are trying to shoehorn something else into the story, those events actually did happen in 70 A.D. Indeed a Jewish rebellion did arise.. It did meet some success, there was a feeling of apparent peace. Heeding Jesus’s warning at this time, the Christians fled to the a city called Pella accross the Jordan river. Then the Romans subsequently returned to destroy the city.
Many people are confused because of the hyperbole that Christ uses about stars falling from the sky, and the sun and the moon failing to shine.
[29] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
(Matthew 24:29-31 ESV)
It is very interesting to me that Josephus and Tactus, the historians of the day both record (Rather reluctantly) that people reported seeing and hearing armies of angels in the sky evacuating Jerusalem in 70 AD.
The astronomical descriptions given here are hyperbole that where used by other prophets when describing the fall of other cities. Basically it was a phrase that meant “Lights out for Jerusalem” Isaiah 13 uses similar language for “Lights out for Babylon” Indeed, Jeremiah 4:23 used similar language to describe the prior judgment on Jerusalem, as the city was captured and it’s inhabitants where taken into excile.
Problems come about when we take figurative language about stars falling from the skies and about multi-headed dragons, and about winged women, and try to make it literal, at the expense of taking very literal language such as “This Generation shall not pass” and make it totally symbolic.
What happens is that the world thinks of Jesus as a liar. Not because he is a liar, but because we in the Church don’t believe him. If we don’t believe him, neither will anyone else.
33 AD ushered in a new age. 70 AD marked the burial of the old age. Like many bible prophecies they are fulfilled in a “now, but not yet” manner. There is likely much more to come. What happened to Jerusalem could happen to the rest of the world. But on the other hand the Gates of Hell will not hold back an advancing church. Rather than waiting for the destruction of the bad, we ought to be working for the advancing of the good. Denying the “now” part does not help our cause, and it is not worshipful. We ought to acknowledge what God has done and that will build our credibility when we tell the world about what he is going to do.
Jesus told the world “The Kingdom of God is at hand” I do not believe that “at hand” meant 2000 years or so away. The infusion of the Christian ethic has been the foundation for all of the social progress that has happened in the last 2000 years — And more importantly the last 500 years. When we only inventory what we see in our current generation we do miss out on the trajectory of culture from the days of Nero to now. Yes, the mission is not finished and there is a lot more work to be done, but praise God for how far we have come.
Well, no post..
I spent an hour or so prepping a blog post, but then realized it wasn’t much different that the last eschatology one I did.. Nobody took my flamebait then, I am guessing nobody will take it now.
This clip came to my mind again.
So, I figured I would re-share.
Was he just a parable??
I saw the “Good Samaritan” van pull into the parking lot at my office.
Then I thought Wow, you know, nobody ever talks about the Samaritans at all unless they are talking about the good one.
It is pretty amazing how one man can change the reputation of an entire people group.
Then I thought again. I wonder if he was even a real guy. Wasn’t he just a character in one of Jesus’s parables?
I honestly don’t know the answer to that — But I am certain that the words of Jesus can cleanse the reputation of many peoples.
Writing…
Sorry for the slow posts.. I have been busy writing lessons for my bible study classes, and have not been writing as much here as a result. It does amaze me how much easier it is to write these days than it was when I was in college. I typically write about 30 pages a month, and it isn’t painful at all. (Aside from spellchecking)
I did go to the thrift store and got some really good books the other day..
Knowing God: Study Guide
An Introduction to the New Testament
St. Elmo
The same day, I also received A Theological Interpretation of American History
Too much of a good thing is not a good thing.
Guy Kawasaki has an article out today about how entrepreneurs who raise too much capital often find themselves making big mistakes.
Why Too Much Money is Worse than Too Little
I suspect this is true in other areas as well. For example Computers are thousands of times faster than they where 25 years ago, but excel for the most part does the same thing visicalc did.. We are only as efficient as we are forced to be by our constraints, and having less constraints makes us be less efficient.
When tough times come, more efficient systems are more competitive and survive longer with less pain.